Multiple Fuel Filters?

[Els]

Anyone running more than one fuel filter? There's so much crap in the gas we pump, just wondering at what point it could get too restrictive if using more than a single inline filter? It's definitely a pain in the ass pulling carbs out and apart with the tight fit, nitrous applications on some bikes, etc. Doesn't take much in the way of grit or contaminents to fuck up a carb though.

Els

[Toastie]

My experience is most never think of fuel filters..... until its too late.
Being a diesel maniac and where its cold, the one thing I have learned is, flip in a new filter at oil changes.

Unless its a really bad dump of fuel, carry an extra one. I tend to lean towards remote filters that are easily accessable and out of harms way. Big filters and a quality filter is best.

Lets call it cheap insurance.

[KrautV8]

Els,

I run two inline filters. One between petcock and fuel pump to prevent the pump from rocks (Edelbrock aluminum) and one very fine, large diameter paper filter (plastic, clear) to prevent the carb from small debris. I clean the aluminum filter and change the paper filter every winter.

Loaf

[Els]

Olaf,

I'm thinking I'm going to run 2 also. I'm not too worried about the pump (Edelbrock mechanical) but I'm just not believing how much small, grit type crap I've seen in the carbs. If it ends up in the bottom of the bowl, no big deal but there's a ton of places even a little grit will really screw up operations and require a complete carb disassembly.

There probably can't be too many filters. My real concern was whether more than one would restrict the flow enough to screw up WOT or high speed performance.

I've also not explored filters with elements that can be cleaned. I've got to check that out. Most of my filters have been the solid aluminum variety (from NAPA) where you don't know what's happening. Also some of the plastic types that don't allow you to get a good visual or change or clean the filtering element. Time to look in the catalogs for the clear variety with access.

Elliot

[AR]

I got 3...like Olaf but just one more little one located before the fuel solenoid RUunning holley blue and never found anything untoward in the filters or bowl but admittedly i dont look that often. On top of that i think we must have better QC in the southern hemisphere, very rare to hear of a bad fuel case.

pir.

[Ric]

I think I'll take Toasties advice... and just put a good filter with a valve on both sides so that it's an easy change... and change it two or three times a season. Easy peazy... simple pimple... funny punny... ha..... errrrr nevermind.

[KrautV8]

Olaf,

I'm thinking I'm going to run 2 also. I'm not too worried about the pump (Edelbrock mechanical) but I'm just not believing how much small, grit type crap I've seen in the carbs. If it ends up in the bottom of the bowl, no big deal but there's a ton of places even a little grit will really screw up operations and require a complete carb disassembly.

There probably can't be too many filters. My real concern was whether more than one would restrict the flow enough to screw up WOT or high speed performance.

I've also not explored filters with elements that can be cleaned. I've got to check that out. Most of my filters have been the solid aluminum variety (from NAPA) where you don't know what's happening. Also some of the plastic types that don't allow you to get a good visual or change or clean the filtering element. Time to look in the catalogs for the clear variety with access.

Elliot

Elliot,
that's what I was looking for, too. But all clear filters with exchangeable elements I found years ago were the cheap glass 3-piece types which can leak or break from Moroso or Mr.Gasket.

Then I was at ATU (similiar to NAPA) and asked about an inline Filter, not too large, not too small, very fine paper element with large filter surface, clear housing.

They asked me "for what car?".....I said for no car, for my motorcycle. They can only search their system if you can tell them for what car your filter belongs. I ended up going in their storage place and opening all boxes to see how the filters looks like....hahahahaha....

Took me one hour or so to find a clear plastic MANN Filter which is exacly what I was looking for. I used it for many years on my ole 99 single speed until I got my 07 SS bike and then I bought an $45 Edelbrock inline filter #8129 with a 40 micron mesh element and thought anything more would be overkill.

This setup was good for not even a month until the SS left me stranded, fortunatly not too far away from home. I limped to my garage on 3 or 4 cylinders at 4 or 5 mph and I had to take the tank off to found a totally clogged fuel filter - not the EDE unit, it was the small paper unit with the rubber valve, inside the carb. The only reason that it was still inside the carb was that the bike was new, otherwise I would have took it out before.

I also found tons of other small shit in the fuel bowl...exactly like you described.

I took the small filter out, it was not only clogged, it was completly full of grey mud...think it was primer which somehow entered the inside of the tank during painting. I threw it in the trash can and installed the inline Mann Filter instead.

Then I took the Edelbrock aluminum filter apart to see what debris would be in there and found nothing! It looked totally clean inside cause the steel mesh is not fine enough and all the small shit went thru it to the carb. Since then I would never consider to run my system without a large paper filter, cause it's the best you can do. Much better than every expensive Russel or Edelbrock steel mesh filter.

This is what I use:
http://www.teiledirekt.de/product_info. ... 62/refID/2

Loaf

[Els]

Olaf, this is an invaluable story. People have thought I'm a bit crazy talking about multiple inline filters but after a few times running one before the fuel pump and another after exiting the tank and you still get shit in the carb...you get a bit paranoid or looking for over kill. I don't care how many I have if they're not too obvious and it doesn't restrict flow.

You're also right about the multiple piece glass filters. You think seeing through it is the answer but I remember them leaking when using one in an old 'Vette a number of years ago.

Sounds like the large paper element is the way to go. I appreciate the recommendation. I'm on it...

Elliot

[hogv8]

Last year while cruising at about 75 MPH my bike quit and I pulled to the side of the road trying to think what could have happened . After a few min. I tried to start the bike and it fired right up . I was baffled but went on my way with no problem . When I got home I pulled the small filter out of the carb and although not perfect it really didn't look that bad but I replaced it with a new one and haven't had a problem since . I think it could have been this small carb filter that caused the bike to quit but am not totally positive . I just couldn't find anything else wrong that could have caused the bike to quit all of the sudden like it did .

I'd like to eliminate this small carb filter but I worry about hydro-locking . Any advise ??

Thanks , Jack

[Els]

Jack,

I'm a bit confused. I've always associated the term "hydrolocking" with fuel leaking into the cylinder. I don't think the little filter in the carb could be a component to that unless it somehow vented. With the system including the filter being closed to any type of air venting, I don't see how it could affect hydrolocking.

We've all discussed this with respect to the petcock or fuel shut valve numerous times. I've personally had some gremlins there changing between different type of shut off valves to prevent a hydrolock. No easy answer as I don't trust the electric valve, the vacuum valve hasn't worked on my bike, and my forgetfullness can shit the whole thing up using a manual valve.

Elliot

[SQ4MN]

I rode early british bikes, TRIUMPHS etc. for lots of years and they had AMAL carbs wiht floats that were never worth a shit. You always had to turn off the petcocks whenever you parked to prevent problems. I hated it but it became a habit. Today I still do it out of habit even though my memory sucks. Sometimes I put a lock through one of the holes in my disc brake rotor. This has resulted in me firing up the bike , placing it in gear and letting out the clutch only to move two or three feet when the front wheel would lock up and I fall over. Of course as I was falling I would remember the lock. This happened twice in the last 15 years starting at about age 52. This stunt never looks good in a group of bikers or around any other group for that matter. I can't rely on my memory that can be best described as non existant. I now put the little leather holder for the disc brake lock over the opening in the ignition switch whenever I lock the bike. My key for the ignition switch and the disc brake lock are the only keys on the ring that starts the bike. The leather thing covering the ignition switch key opening reminds me to remove the disc brake lock. If you guys see me laying over in the parking lot you'll know that I fucked up somehow again. Dave

[KrautV8]

Jack,

when I fought my flooding problem a while ago (fuel dropped into the intake, the longer the bike stood with open petcock, the more fuel dropped into it - after a couple of hours it was enough for a good wet shot out of the exhaust pipes), I took the fuel inlet hose off and blew with my mouth thru it to check if the rubber valve inside the carb does work correct. It should be open at, let's say 2 psi (what it did) and seal at no or very low pressure. At first I thought it was sealing but when I blew a very small amount of air thru it with very, very low pressure, I detectet it as leaking. Over the years I bought two new Carbs and so I had two spare filters with rubber valve laying around. I tested the other both (still new, cause I never installed them), but both were leaking a little when I blew thru them. They are not precision made, and my experience is that they are not working for what they are made.

The hydrolock/fuel flooding problem has a lot to do with fuel float hight, fuel pressure, needle seat and needle valve. After I bought a pressure regulator and had my fuel pressure as low as only 4 psi and after I changed the needle/seat combo 3 times, after I had adjusted my fuel float to the lowest specs, and after I have epoxied the 4 plugs under the fuel bowl - it was still leaking gas into the intake....with the filter and rubber valve installed.

On a sidenote - my fuel flooding problem turned out to be too cheap needle/seat combo's which were poor made and I had three of them ordered at the same time at Carburetion.com which I all installed - successless - until I have read in the internet that this problem occurred to numerous other people with cheap aftermarket needle seat combos. Then I bought the more expensive Edelbrock needle and seat kit and the problem was fixed! I couldn't believe it! I readjusted my fuel float back to higher specs, and the fuel pressure back to 5.5 psi. Now, after I shut off the engine, my fuel pressure gauge still shows 2 to 3psi of pressure after one day of sitting in the garage, no matter what carb I install, my "problem child" (a EDE 1904) which came with the SS bike, or a rebuild 1901 which I bought 6 month ago.

What I want to say is - these rubber valves are a piece of junk and really not worth to leave in the carb. This thing will not prevent you from hydrolock if you have a flooding problem with your carb. The engine will be full of gas, with or without the rubber valve. The only good solution is to turn off the fuel petcock or a vacuum/electric valve. The rubber valve is just not good for something other than the possiability to get clogged and leave you stranded like it did on mine.

Hey any pics of your 300 tire/steel fender mod??

Olaf

[KrautV8]

Dave,
that's too funny....hahahaha....same thing happend to me years ago when I bought two disk brake locks for my Honda....hahahaha...never installed them again, they are not made for the brainless....hahahaha....I fell against my garage wall, dropped the bike and felt like an idiot, remember that very well - fortunatly no one was looking at me

Olaf

[hogv8]

Jack,

when I fought my flooding problem a while ago (fuel dropped into the intake, the longer the bike stood with open petcock, the more fuel dropped into it - after a couple of hours it was enough for a good wet shot out of the exhaust pipes), I took the fuel inlet hose off and blew with my mouth thru it to check if the rubber valve inside the carb does work correct. It should be open at, let's say 2 psi (what it did) and seal at no or very low pressure. At first I thought it was sealing but when I blew a very small amount of air thru it with very, very low pressure, I detectet it as leaking. Over the years I bought two new Carbs and so I had two spare filters with rubber valve laying around. I tested the other both (still new, cause I never installed them), but both were leaking a little when I blew thru them. They are not precision made, and my experience is that they are not working for what they are made.

The hydrolock/fuel flooding problem has a lot to do with fuel float hight, fuel pressure, needle seat and needle valve. After I bought a pressure regulator and had my fuel pressure as low as only 4 psi and after I changed the needle/seat combo 3 times, after I had adjusted my fuel float to the lowest specs, and after I have epoxied the 4 plugs under the fuel bowl - it was still leaking gas into the intake....with the filter and rubber valve installed.

On a sidenote - my fuel flooding problem turned out to be too cheap needle/seat combo's which were poor made and I had three of them ordered at the same time at Carburetion.com which I all installed - successless - until I have read in the internet that this problem occurred to numerous other people with cheap aftermarket needle seat combos. Then I bought the more expensive Edelbrock needle and seat kit and the problem was fixed! I couldn't believe it! I readjusted my fuel float back to higher specs, and the fuel pressure back to 5.5 psi. Now, after I shut off the engine, my fuel pressure gauge still shows 2 to 3psi of pressure after one day of sitting in the garage, no matter what carb I install, my "problem child" (a EDE 1904) which came with the SS bike, or a rebuild 1901 which I bought 6 month ago.

What I want to say is - these rubber valves are a piece of junk and really not worth to leave in the carb. This thing will not prevent you from hydrolock if you have a flooding problem with your carb. The engine will be full of gas, with or without the rubber valve. The only good solution is to turn off the fuel petcock or a vacuum/electric valve. The rubber valve is just not good for something other than the possiability to get clogged and leave you stranded like it did on mine.

Hey any pics of your 300 tire/steel fender mod??

Olaf

Olaf , I understand what you are saying and as you know I have experimented with both electric and vacuum shutoff fuel valves . I'm back to shutting off my petcock at least if the bike is going to set for a long period of time . Though the carb filter with the pressure flapper valve may not be full proof against hydro-locking if all is working as it should it does help prevent hydro-locking . I've heard from experts that in almost every case of hydro-locking it happened in carbs that had this filter removed . I don't want to take this chance . I will carry a spare and if I have a fuel delivery problem this is one of the first things I will check and replace if necessary .

Yes , I do have my new 18" wheels with a 280 rear tire and new rounded rear fender and front fender set ups finished . I will post some pictures soon .

Jack

[Redtro]

Stan installed a vacuum setup on my Chopper. I like it because I never have to remember to shut/open the fuel. I was "religious" about shutting the fuel off on my B.H. and many times I would crank and drive off with the fuel off only to have the bike quit about 30 seconds afterward. I don't have to worry about that anymore. The only problem with this is that if I don't crank my Chopper within a week of the last ride, the system looses vacuum and the carb doesn't generate enough vacuum with the starter turning to prime it again. When that happens, I have to pull the vacuum line (no clamps) loose from the carb and suck on it with the engine turning to prime it again. It don't take much sucking and no, I don't get gas in my mouth or even smell gas. It's only a vacuum line. It's also a little embarrassing to have to do this when someone is at my home and wants to hear it run and I haven't cranked it in over a week. But, it really isn't much trouble and I don't have to worry about hydro locking my engine. I never have to "suck my bike off" during a rally...only when it sits up for a while.

[Els]

I never have to "suck my bike off" .

I always knew he wasn't right.

Els

[KrautV8]

....it's also a little embarrassing to have to do this when someone is at my home and wants to hear it run..

Ricky,

that's not embarrassing at all! If I would see a biker on a cool V8 CHopper, who's bike wouldn't start and if he then would get off the bike and pull some hose and do something with it, and the engine would fire right up after that, I would be impressed!! I would think you know your bike very well and you did a road side repair and fixed the prob within 20 seconds. I would think "Wooow....one cool biker!"

Is this the valve you have?
http://www.pingelonline.com/powerflo_9050.htm

Olaf

[KrautV8]

....the system looses vacuum and the carb doesn't generate enough vacuum with the starter turning to prime it again. When that happens, I have to pull the vacuum line (no clamps) loose from the carb and suck on it with the engine turning to prime it again....

Ricky,

now that I think about your "sucking problem"

...hmmm...a good starter and a powerfull cranking engine with closed throttle plates should produce more vacuum than your mouth. Is it possible that Stan hooked it up on ported vacuum (above the throttle plates) instead of manifold vacuum?

Just a thought...

Olaf

[Redtro]

Olaf, I had to call Stan to find out which Vacuum Fuel valve he used since I haven't had my tank off yet or messed with the valve itself. This link you posted is the correct valve and he sells them for a little less than the price listed on the pingel site. He said he would have that part listed on his parts page in the next 15 min. and will cost $92.

http://www.v8choppers.net/parts.aspx

The vacuum line is connected to a vacuum port located on the front/bottom of the carb. You got me wondering about changing that location now. I wonder if the increased vacuum (manifold) would cause trouble for the valve?

[KrautV8]

.....The vacuum line is connected to a vacuum port located on the front/bottom of the carb. You got me wondering about changing that location now. I wonder if the increased vacuum (manifold) would cause trouble for the valve?

Ricky,
I rethought my question - Stan must have already hooked up your valve to a manifold vacuum source. Ported vacuum has no vacuum at idle, so the valve would be closed and the engine would die after a while in idle.

Sorry for the confusion.

I really love that valve - I wanted to buy one a long time ago and maybe I do so this winter and try it next season. Like Jack, I too am back closing my petcock, but from time to time I forget to do that.

Olaf

[KrautV8]

Olaf , I understand what you are saying and as you know I have experimented with both electric and vacuum shutoff fuel valves . I'm back to shutting off my petcock at least if the bike is going to set for a long period of time . Though the carb filter with the pressure flapper valve may not be full proof against hydro-locking if all is working as it should it does help prevent hydro-locking . I've heard from experts that in almost every case of hydro-locking it happened in carbs that had this filter removed . I don't want to take this chance . I will carry a spare and if I have a fuel delivery problem this is one of the first things I will check and replace if necessary .

Yes , I do have my new 18" wheels with a 280 rear tire and new rounded rear fender and front fender set ups finished . I will post some pictures soon .

Jack

Jack,
I think the rubber valve itself can't hurt something, if one installs it or not. Sealing or leaking. The bad boy is the small filter cause it can leave one stranded. If there is a big paper filter installed before the carb, the small internal filter and rubber valve gets most likely never clogged.

Another option I thought about a while ago would be to machine a small aluminum housing, exact the same size of the small internal filter, drilling it from the sides and pushing the rubber valve inside. Then the small filter in the trash can and a big inline paper filter instead...

Olaf

[hogv8]

I had the same problem as Ricky when I ran a vacuum operated fuel shut off valve and I had mine connected to manifold vacuum . That's the main reason I took it off . I think an electric fuel shut off valve is the way to go but finding the right one is the problem . I don't trust the Jaguar fuel shut off valve because I tried one and had problems with it also .

Jack

[KrautV8]

Jack, was it the same Pingel vacuum valve Ricky is using?? I wonder why these valves work on almost all modern Japanese bikes, and not on ours?....hmmmmm.....

Olaf

[hogv8]

Jack, was it the same Pingel vacuum valve Ricky is using?? I wonder why these valves work on almost all modern Japanese bikes, and not on ours?....hmmmmm.....

Olaf

No , the vacuum valve I was using is one that I converted from a Harley vacuum operated petcock . Worked great except when the bike sat for a few days it would loose it's prime . I also like Ricky had to disconnect the vacuum hose from the carb and "suck it off " to open the valve . I purposely made the vacuum hose connected to the carb manifold vacuum port long enough so I could do this quite easily but I really wouldn't want anyone to see me have to do this plus it was a pain in the ass . Maybe some kind of squeeze ball like they use on a outboard boat gas tank would work to create enough vacuum to open the valve while cranking the engine ??

Jack



Jack

[Els]

Maybe some kind of squeeze ball like they use on a outboard boat gas tank would work to create enough vacuum to open the valve while cranking the engine ??

Jack



Jack

I looked for one everywhere about a year ago when I was using the vacuum valve. The outboard variety was of course too big. I may have found something smaller but then the i.d. of a real small hose to fit on the real small fittings of the ball would have restricted fuel flow too much. I gave up and went back to the manual valve.

What happened to those valves that had some type of reservoir that would hold some gas?

E